I commented just because, in contrary of what you said in the post, i think you can be easily ok with animal exploitation and still consider yourself a leftist.
Having said that, i try to avoid meat when i can and i try to prefer a more vegetable based diet. Im just not ready to ban meat all around right now. As i said, i’d do it just for the enviromental damages of intensive farms, not because im compassionate about cows or chickens.
But that’s not the point i was originally addressing. You shifted the focus towards the fact i’ll be not going vegan.
I made the ipotetic sentence that IF i would be going vegan i would do it just for the enviroment, ignoring the animal exploitation you addressed in the post, and by doing so i think my leftism would be intact.
I was just saying that i dont agree with the fact that “veganism is leftism” and that the leftism of a person is also judged based on what he thinks of animal exploitation. If you want to stay here and point out im not going vegan because basically im too lazy, thats ok.
Maybe you should care about animals? If it’s morally defensible to abuse whom you don’t care about, then all anyone has to do is not care about you to be free to abuse you.
Animals are animals and human being are human beings.
Your point would made sense if you put animals and humans be on the same level, which in my opinion they aren’t.
The fact im ok with killing animals to eat meat doesnt mean that i think that some people hold less value or that if they’re powerless in some situation justify me or anyone else in abusing, killing them or anything of sort. Because they’re people. Not animals.
You’re just one step away from de-humanizing other people and treating them like shit. (Or others doing the same to you.)
Recognize and reduce suffering where you can. Humans aren’t that special. We’re just lucky to have been the first on this planet to evolve to be smart enough to build societies and stuff.
There’s plenty of science fiction stories that explore this. Oh look at these puny humans. They haven’t even colonized other planets in their system. And they’re still fighting amongst themselves. [Insert plenty of other good reasons that we suck, here.] Clearly, they’re savages, and we can exploit them as we see fit. Oh, actually they taste really good, let’s make a human farm, breed and kill millions every month.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through. You should consider the possibility that you’re just rationalizing something that has become quite normal, but actually is kind of horrific if you think of the harm that it’s causing.
Well, i think you made a pretty good point. Maybe i really am rationalizing.
But about your example with another civilization, don’t you think there’s a pretty big difference between two civilized (even if at different levels) species, where the more advanced one could recognise the fact we are just at a lower grade but still “respect” the fact we are sentient, and between humans and animals?
I mean, even if they are on another stage of civilization i dont think we can subjogate like those tribes who lives uncontacted in islands or forests, cause they are still people.
And why can’t we treat animals similarly to how we would want to be treated?
Many animals show quite civilized behavior. Live and let live. Sometimes they cooperate cross-species. Where they don’t, it’s mostly due to evolutionary pressure and need for survival. We’ve gone beyond the need of consuming meat for survival. And more importantly, we can reason about if it’s good or not. Also, occasionally I question how “civilized” us humans really are.
I feel like you’re just saying that humans are better, more important and/or more special than animals, treating that as a fact, and somehow extrapolating from there that we somehow have the “right” to inflict harm on “lesser” beings purely because meat tastes good?
Some rich doof will think “workers are just workers, they don’t deserve the same consideration educated people do”. How would you argue against this logic? Because it’s humans? But humans are also animals, how can we arbitrarily exclude ourselves from that group?
Are you really trying to say theres no difference between a human and an animal?
Im smart enough to understand that humans are to be treated in a way, animals are just animals.
If some idiot thinks that there are “levels” in humanity because of characteristics they cant control or are precluder to somebody because of socieconomics factors above him, ill be sure to punch him.
No such difference that warrants the treatment we give them. Sure, they can’t read, they don’t speak a sophisticated language etc. How does that influence their capability to feel pain? Boredom? Fear? Isolation? Saying “animals are just animals” really makes me wonder, what do you think makes us so different that we don’t deserve to be subjugated to physical and mental torture?
No, they’re trying to make you tell us what the moral difference is between humans and animals. YOU’RE the one saying they are not the same. We are asking, why? “Because I’m smart” is not an answer. If you can convince yourself that an individual with obvious interests, desires, and emotions is not even in the same moral category as a human that you like, you can EASILY convince yourself that any human being with interests, desires and emotions is ALSO not in the same moral category. This isn’t a hypothetical, this is something people do every day. So we’ll accept that humans all have the same moral worth, but you still have to explain why animals have so little moral worth, that they way they taste is more important than their lives.
I’m out here arguing that the pain and suffering that a human would feel from being abused like an animal is no different from the pain livestock animals feel from the way we treat them. What you are trying to say is that because animals cannot read, speak or enjoy theatre, their cries of pain can be ignored.
They are not putting them on the same level. Rather, you are trying to say animals have no value, not that they have less value than a human. You and every vegan agree that humans have more value than animals. Vegans simply disagree with you that animals have no value. Their lives must still be considered, even if they are not as important as a human being. They are not so worthless that your sensory enjoyment is worth more than their actual lives, even ignoring the direct harm it causes you and other humans.
Imagine if you only thought that human beings that you were personally related to or loved had intrinsic value and everyone else can be treated like, well, meat. That’s very close to what you’re suggesting here.
Hey, it would be awesome if you did that, but that’s not veganism. That’s environmentalism.
Let’s say that one day we discover how to replace an environmentally harmful process we all depend on for some aspect of modern life with one that requires animal ag. The environmentalist would switch. The vegan would abstain from both. Because they have different objectives.
The point i was waking reffered to the post, which implies the fact that leftism is tied to veganism and that NOT being vegan strip me of the tag of leftist. I disagree with that. I just then added my opinion on veganism which you corrected (rightfully). I would be enviromentalist then if i’ll happen yo stop eating meat.
Addressing the larger point: turning your back on mercy for vulnerable individuals and instead choosing needless cruelty and violence for nothing more than your own sensory pleasure (ignoring that you are being manipulated by capital to behave this way, except to acknowledge that I don’t entirely blame you) is an obvious abandonment of all core leftist values. You can’t be both things at the same time. You are depending on compartmentalization to separate this atrocity that you commit from your view of yourself as a leftist. But the lies you tell yourself are not convincing to others. (Well, those who don’t cling to the same lies, of course.)
What if i dont care about animals? If i would become vegan i would do it just for the enviromental benefits.
So do it.
Nah i don’t wanna. Meat is too tasty.
I commented just because, in contrary of what you said in the post, i think you can be easily ok with animal exploitation and still consider yourself a leftist.
Having said that, i try to avoid meat when i can and i try to prefer a more vegetable based diet. Im just not ready to ban meat all around right now. As i said, i’d do it just for the enviromental damages of intensive farms, not because im compassionate about cows or chickens.
But as you said you wouldn’t do it for the environmental damages, you won’t do it all. So you’re just talking complete shit.
But that’s not the point i was originally addressing. You shifted the focus towards the fact i’ll be not going vegan.
I made the ipotetic sentence that IF i would be going vegan i would do it just for the enviroment, ignoring the animal exploitation you addressed in the post, and by doing so i think my leftism would be intact.
I was just saying that i dont agree with the fact that “veganism is leftism” and that the leftism of a person is also judged based on what he thinks of animal exploitation. If you want to stay here and point out im not going vegan because basically im too lazy, thats ok.
Highly recommend you the following reads, might change your mind:
Maybe you should care about animals? If it’s morally defensible to abuse whom you don’t care about, then all anyone has to do is not care about you to be free to abuse you.
Animals are animals and human being are human beings. Your point would made sense if you put animals and humans be on the same level, which in my opinion they aren’t.
The fact im ok with killing animals to eat meat doesnt mean that i think that some people hold less value or that if they’re powerless in some situation justify me or anyone else in abusing, killing them or anything of sort. Because they’re people. Not animals.
Humans are animals, too.
You’re just one step away from de-humanizing other people and treating them like shit. (Or others doing the same to you.)
Recognize and reduce suffering where you can. Humans aren’t that special. We’re just lucky to have been the first on this planet to evolve to be smart enough to build societies and stuff.
There’s plenty of science fiction stories that explore this. Oh look at these puny humans. They haven’t even colonized other planets in their system. And they’re still fighting amongst themselves. [Insert plenty of other good reasons that we suck, here.] Clearly, they’re savages, and we can exploit them as we see fit. Oh, actually they taste really good, let’s make a human farm, breed and kill millions every month.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through. You should consider the possibility that you’re just rationalizing something that has become quite normal, but actually is kind of horrific if you think of the harm that it’s causing.
Well, i think you made a pretty good point. Maybe i really am rationalizing.
But about your example with another civilization, don’t you think there’s a pretty big difference between two civilized (even if at different levels) species, where the more advanced one could recognise the fact we are just at a lower grade but still “respect” the fact we are sentient, and between humans and animals?
I mean, even if they are on another stage of civilization i dont think we can subjogate like those tribes who lives uncontacted in islands or forests, cause they are still people.
And why can’t we treat animals similarly to how we would want to be treated?
Many animals show quite civilized behavior. Live and let live. Sometimes they cooperate cross-species. Where they don’t, it’s mostly due to evolutionary pressure and need for survival. We’ve gone beyond the need of consuming meat for survival. And more importantly, we can reason about if it’s good or not. Also, occasionally I question how “civilized” us humans really are.
I feel like you’re just saying that humans are better, more important and/or more special than animals, treating that as a fact, and somehow extrapolating from there that we somehow have the “right” to inflict harm on “lesser” beings purely because meat tastes good?
Also, thank you for being open.
Some rich doof will think “workers are just workers, they don’t deserve the same consideration educated people do”. How would you argue against this logic? Because it’s humans? But humans are also animals, how can we arbitrarily exclude ourselves from that group?
Are you really trying to say theres no difference between a human and an animal?
Im smart enough to understand that humans are to be treated in a way, animals are just animals. If some idiot thinks that there are “levels” in humanity because of characteristics they cant control or are precluder to somebody because of socieconomics factors above him, ill be sure to punch him.
No such difference that warrants the treatment we give them. Sure, they can’t read, they don’t speak a sophisticated language etc. How does that influence their capability to feel pain? Boredom? Fear? Isolation? Saying “animals are just animals” really makes me wonder, what do you think makes us so different that we don’t deserve to be subjugated to physical and mental torture?
No, they’re trying to make you tell us what the moral difference is between humans and animals. YOU’RE the one saying they are not the same. We are asking, why? “Because I’m smart” is not an answer. If you can convince yourself that an individual with obvious interests, desires, and emotions is not even in the same moral category as a human that you like, you can EASILY convince yourself that any human being with interests, desires and emotions is ALSO not in the same moral category. This isn’t a hypothetical, this is something people do every day. So we’ll accept that humans all have the same moral worth, but you still have to explain why animals have so little moral worth, that they way they taste is more important than their lives.
“I don’t know the difference between a human being and a cow” isn’t the flex you believe it is
Don’t know where I said that, so good flex on your deduction skills.
Are you telling me you’re not out there arguing there’s no difference between livestock and human beings?
I’m out here arguing that the pain and suffering that a human would feel from being abused like an animal is no different from the pain livestock animals feel from the way we treat them. What you are trying to say is that because animals cannot read, speak or enjoy theatre, their cries of pain can be ignored.
That’s not what you are arguing though. There’s multiple posts from you in there where you say there’s no difference between humans and livestock.
I agree we should not inflict unnecessary pain on animals, which is why I only acquire meat from local ethical farms.
They are not putting them on the same level. Rather, you are trying to say animals have no value, not that they have less value than a human. You and every vegan agree that humans have more value than animals. Vegans simply disagree with you that animals have no value. Their lives must still be considered, even if they are not as important as a human being. They are not so worthless that your sensory enjoyment is worth more than their actual lives, even ignoring the direct harm it causes you and other humans.
Imagine if you only thought that human beings that you were personally related to or loved had intrinsic value and everyone else can be treated like, well, meat. That’s very close to what you’re suggesting here.
Hey, it would be awesome if you did that, but that’s not veganism. That’s environmentalism.
Let’s say that one day we discover how to replace an environmentally harmful process we all depend on for some aspect of modern life with one that requires animal ag. The environmentalist would switch. The vegan would abstain from both. Because they have different objectives.
Veganism is about animals.
The point i was waking reffered to the post, which implies the fact that leftism is tied to veganism and that NOT being vegan strip me of the tag of leftist. I disagree with that. I just then added my opinion on veganism which you corrected (rightfully). I would be enviromentalist then if i’ll happen yo stop eating meat.
Addressing the larger point: turning your back on mercy for vulnerable individuals and instead choosing needless cruelty and violence for nothing more than your own sensory pleasure (ignoring that you are being manipulated by capital to behave this way, except to acknowledge that I don’t entirely blame you) is an obvious abandonment of all core leftist values. You can’t be both things at the same time. You are depending on compartmentalization to separate this atrocity that you commit from your view of yourself as a leftist. But the lies you tell yourself are not convincing to others. (Well, those who don’t cling to the same lies, of course.)