Pretty sure plenty of white folks go to black barbers, and plenty of back folks go to white barbers.
Yeah, and that shows your level of ignorance here. Cosmetology and barber schools don’t teach about black hair types and difficulties. White is default in these places and black hair care is considered a “specialty” skill. A black person can’t just walk into any barbershop. Well, they could but it’s unlikely anyone knows how to help them.
I have to be done here, but this is definitely a blind spot for you. Maybe look into it?
You still do not explain why white people’s relationships with their barbers are less meaningful just because the color of their skin.
Also I don’t get why a person with white skin could not go to a barber who has black skin, which would know how to cut white hair because as you said it’s the default, and build a great friendship and community there.
Where I live most white people go to PoC barbershops because most barbershops are own by PoC overall.
Black people and white people are allowed to be friends and to go to each others business now.
Sure white people can go to any barber and be sure they have been trained in straight hair but that is not the point. White people with extremely curly or frizzy hair are also poorly served by society.
So people of African descent have a skill gap to contend with, on top of prejudice to negotiate, and hair becomes a political thing where community needs to close ranks.
Why is it a more meaningful relationship than for non-blacks? Tradition on top of comfort and security, and a layer of “insider knowledge.”
Getting huffy about it is pretty cringy, though, and I wish you were more open to learning.
And I’m 100 percent going to concede that’s a political thing and a community thing. It’s true, it’s a logical statement. That for some black people their hair saloon have a particular relevance that’s unique to them.
But I still say:
It’s not a race thing. As it’s not universal along black people all over the world. Black people from many countries, that still suffer a fuck ton of racisms, doesn’t have that cultural context.
It’s not the primarily reason black people feel bad about losing their hair. First, because loosing your hair doesn’t mean you stop going to the barber. You are still going to get shaved. Second, because most black people feel bad about loosing their hair for the same vanity reasons as white people. Because they make them look a way they don’t want to look like.
This discussion started not by saying “black people can feel bad about losing their hair because this community thing”… no… it started by saying “white people cannot feel bad loosing their hair if it’s because they look old”. While you may have provided some reasons on why a black person could have an additional reason to feel bad for going bald nothing has been said about the thousands of different races and identities that are neither black or white. The original argument was a criticism towards white people, they you trid to shift the discussion towards a excuse on why black people are allowed to feel bad for balding. Let’s forget about black people. Tell me about asians, tell me about latin-americans, tell me about romanies. When they said that “white people it’s not justified to feel bad” they should have provided arguments on why specifically white people cannot feel bad for it. Instead of providing a (bad) argument on why one of the thousands ethnicities that exist on earth may have an excuse to feel bad about balding.
I do not concede that the community bonding that white people form with their hair saloons is less important that the bonding form by black people. It may not be a political bonding, it may not be a bond that has roots on racisms. But it’s still a bond, and humans are hurt when bonds are broken. A bond being political or root on racism is not “more important” than a bond created for other reasons. If they separate you from people you love or a place you belong is going to hurt all the same.
At some point it’s just fucking sad that’s actually pretty universal and bonding between races, as is it “going bald makes you feel like shit” has been tried to be transformed into “this particular race cannot share this feeling because fuck them apparently”.
Brother. As a white person, if you need a haircut you can go to any salon. Your hair isn’t under constant scrutiny. Your default hairstyle isn’t treated as something dirty or wrong. You don’t experience othering or ostracization because of your hair.
You, as an individual, can choose to have your hair be a connection to community. That can be a beautiful thing and losing that might be devastating to you, as an individual. A black person is thrust into community because of their hair because of systemic oppression. It’s a struggle that brings everyone in that community together. You can’t separate one from the other. Every black man who loses his hair loses this integral connection he has to his community.
White people’s connection to community through their hair is a choice, black people’s connection to community through their hair is a survival tactic. That’s why they’re fundamentally different. You can choose, they have no choice but to do so.
We are not going to agree on this. So have a great day. It has been nice to read your point of view on the matter, and there are some things that I haven’t considered before. Still do not personally agree but that’s ok.
Assuming you understand others’ personal and cultural experiences, especially when you aren’t a member of that culture, and especially when you have more than one person saying you don’t understand that culture, is a bad move. You don’t have to “agree” or “disagree.”. Sometimes you can just listen politely.
Precisely why my argument has not been to invalidate black people’s culture. But to criticize when someone tried to invalidated white people’s culture, importance of their hair or relationships with their barbers.
You could also apply the listen and not argue here when I say that hair and hair saloons are important for other ethnicities other that Black American.
I can also tell you my personal experiences and culture. In fact it’s what I’ve mostly say. Never said that black people doesn’t have great relationships and community bonding in barbershops owned supposedly by other black people. I’ve been saying that white (and other ethnicities) also have that, and it’s as important for them, because, you know, every human is important regardless of their skin color.
People aren’t arguing about white peoples and others not having community in the barbershop, but that there’s a layer of risk due to hair type combined with prejudice that puts black hair salons and barbershops at a higher level of necessity. Even in Canada, or maybe especially in Canada, this is obvious.
What we are definitely not arguing about is about the necessity of barbershops that know how to cut black’s people hair. I’m not arguing about it. If a place have population with that type of hair there needs to be barbershops that know how to cut it.
It doesn’t relate with white people, specifically white people, not being allowed to feel bad for balding because it makes them look old.
Cool. Have fun with your intentional ignorance. Your whiteness will undoubtedly shield you from any contradictory evidence if you don’t actively fight against it. Cheers, mate!
Brother. Comrade. Friend. I assumed you’re white because you think that racism is a thing in the past. That it’s an icky, immoral thing for history textbooks and not something that anyone deals with today. I assume you’re white because you defend white people in a scenario where they’re privileged and that privilege shields them from the reality that others face. I assume you’re white because when I give an example of what this experience is like for a non-white community member, you immediately center whiteness in your rebuke. You assume that speaking of the white experience as what it is is somehow racism.
Whiteness isn’t some failing of race, it’s a systemic knowledge gap where white people assume themselves the default race and they think they can easily project their experiences onto other communities. They don’t know the struggles of other communities because they aren’t forced to confront how racism impacts their experience. White privilege isn’t something that gives them a leg up, it just means they don’t have to grapple with racism in their day-to-day lives.
I do not think racism is a think of the past. I do not believe I’ve ever said that. I don’t even identify as white. My DNA has more in common with North Africa than with the Anglo-Saxon groups that created the concept of “being white”, so you should check your prejudices.
Racism is really prevalent today against PoC. I’ve anyone understood anything else from my messages I apologise for not delivering my wording right.
That being said. “White” people is privileged in many areas. Going bald and suffering from balding is not one of them. And invalidating that feeling, saying that a white person going bald should not complain or suffer about it JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE. Rubs me the wrong way. Millions of white people suffer a lot because they are going bald, trying to invalidate that feeling just because they are white is just wrong.
It’s incredibly funny you say I believe “white is the default race” when you directly attacked white people, and your only defence for that offence was that was hair saloons are important for black people. Completely ignoring the thousands of different ethnicities that are neither black neither white. What about a balding Asian? can they complain if they go bald? A balding latin american? Which degree of anglo-saxon DNA has a person have to have in their blood to be able to complain about going bald?
The root of this is that a person say that “white people cannot complain about going bald because they are white” and has yet not retracted that incredibly racist statement.
You don’t know what’s going on in the life of that balding white person, and you CANNOT DEDUCE IT FROM THEIR RACE. You don’t know if they are for instance a trans woman and suffering an incredible gender disforia because the balding. You don’t know what importance have their hair in their lives. And trying to invalidate those feelings based only on their skin color is a bad thing to do.
I don’t even identify as white. My DNA has more in common with North Africa than with the Anglo-Saxon groups that created the concept of “being white”, so you should check your prejudices
Sorry, can’t let this go. This is the whitest fucking shit I’ve ever heard. Bro, non-white people don’t fucking choose how to identify. They are identified and have to deal with how they’re identified. The fact that you think you can choose to not identify with whiteness screams of the fact that you’re absolutely steeped in it.
Especially if you’re white and you just don’t want to go bald cause “then you’ll be old”.
My direct quote, it’s interesting that that doesn’t say what you said it does. I’m not saying this isn’t a struggle for white people, silly. I’m saying that they have less to grapple with losing. Even if they have the same level of connection to community through their hair, losing that won’t other them from an intrinsic part of their identity. That is a lesser loss, which was my point and the reason why I emphasized that.
Completely ignoring the thousands of different ethnicities
I’m not ignoring shit, dude. You asked what being white had to do with it, I gave a counter-example of someone who isn’t white losing something deeper than a white person could face in the same situation. I don’t need to explain that hair is a big part of many identities to demonstrate my point or cover every possible group that it could possibly apply to, just that it isn’t the same for white people.
Yeah, and that shows your level of ignorance here. Cosmetology and barber schools don’t teach about black hair types and difficulties. White is default in these places and black hair care is considered a “specialty” skill. A black person can’t just walk into any barbershop. Well, they could but it’s unlikely anyone knows how to help them.
I have to be done here, but this is definitely a blind spot for you. Maybe look into it?
“No true Scot” found in the urban centres.
Did I use the “No True Scotsman” fallacy? I’m not seeing it
Lots to unpack here.
You still do not explain why white people’s relationships with their barbers are less meaningful just because the color of their skin.
Also I don’t get why a person with white skin could not go to a barber who has black skin, which would know how to cut white hair because as you said it’s the default, and build a great friendship and community there.
Where I live most white people go to PoC barbershops because most barbershops are own by PoC overall.
Black people and white people are allowed to be friends and to go to each others business now.
Sure white people can go to any barber and be sure they have been trained in straight hair but that is not the point. White people with extremely curly or frizzy hair are also poorly served by society.
So people of African descent have a skill gap to contend with, on top of prejudice to negotiate, and hair becomes a political thing where community needs to close ranks.
Why is it a more meaningful relationship than for non-blacks? Tradition on top of comfort and security, and a layer of “insider knowledge.”
Getting huffy about it is pretty cringy, though, and I wish you were more open to learning.
And I’m 100 percent going to concede that’s a political thing and a community thing. It’s true, it’s a logical statement. That for some black people their hair saloon have a particular relevance that’s unique to them.
But I still say:
It’s not a race thing. As it’s not universal along black people all over the world. Black people from many countries, that still suffer a fuck ton of racisms, doesn’t have that cultural context. It’s not the primarily reason black people feel bad about losing their hair. First, because loosing your hair doesn’t mean you stop going to the barber. You are still going to get shaved. Second, because most black people feel bad about loosing their hair for the same vanity reasons as white people. Because they make them look a way they don’t want to look like. This discussion started not by saying “black people can feel bad about losing their hair because this community thing”… no… it started by saying “white people cannot feel bad loosing their hair if it’s because they look old”. While you may have provided some reasons on why a black person could have an additional reason to feel bad for going bald nothing has been said about the thousands of different races and identities that are neither black or white. The original argument was a criticism towards white people, they you trid to shift the discussion towards a excuse on why black people are allowed to feel bad for balding. Let’s forget about black people. Tell me about asians, tell me about latin-americans, tell me about romanies. When they said that “white people it’s not justified to feel bad” they should have provided arguments on why specifically white people cannot feel bad for it. Instead of providing a (bad) argument on why one of the thousands ethnicities that exist on earth may have an excuse to feel bad about balding.
I do not concede that the community bonding that white people form with their hair saloons is less important that the bonding form by black people. It may not be a political bonding, it may not be a bond that has roots on racisms. But it’s still a bond, and humans are hurt when bonds are broken. A bond being political or root on racism is not “more important” than a bond created for other reasons. If they separate you from people you love or a place you belong is going to hurt all the same.
At some point it’s just fucking sad that’s actually pretty universal and bonding between races, as is it “going bald makes you feel like shit” has been tried to be transformed into “this particular race cannot share this feeling because fuck them apparently”.
Wow OK
Brother. As a white person, if you need a haircut you can go to any salon. Your hair isn’t under constant scrutiny. Your default hairstyle isn’t treated as something dirty or wrong. You don’t experience othering or ostracization because of your hair.
You, as an individual, can choose to have your hair be a connection to community. That can be a beautiful thing and losing that might be devastating to you, as an individual. A black person is thrust into community because of their hair because of systemic oppression. It’s a struggle that brings everyone in that community together. You can’t separate one from the other. Every black man who loses his hair loses this integral connection he has to his community.
White people’s connection to community through their hair is a choice, black people’s connection to community through their hair is a survival tactic. That’s why they’re fundamentally different. You can choose, they have no choice but to do so.
Sorry, I simply not buy that.
We are not going to agree on this. So have a great day. It has been nice to read your point of view on the matter, and there are some things that I haven’t considered before. Still do not personally agree but that’s ok.
Assuming you understand others’ personal and cultural experiences, especially when you aren’t a member of that culture, and especially when you have more than one person saying you don’t understand that culture, is a bad move. You don’t have to “agree” or “disagree.”. Sometimes you can just listen politely.
Precisely why my argument has not been to invalidate black people’s culture. But to criticize when someone tried to invalidated white people’s culture, importance of their hair or relationships with their barbers.
You could also apply the listen and not argue here when I say that hair and hair saloons are important for other ethnicities other that Black American.
I can also tell you my personal experiences and culture. In fact it’s what I’ve mostly say. Never said that black people doesn’t have great relationships and community bonding in barbershops owned supposedly by other black people. I’ve been saying that white (and other ethnicities) also have that, and it’s as important for them, because, you know, every human is important regardless of their skin color.
People aren’t arguing about white peoples and others not having community in the barbershop, but that there’s a layer of risk due to hair type combined with prejudice that puts black hair salons and barbershops at a higher level of necessity. Even in Canada, or maybe especially in Canada, this is obvious.
What we are definitely not arguing about is about the necessity of barbershops that know how to cut black’s people hair. I’m not arguing about it. If a place have population with that type of hair there needs to be barbershops that know how to cut it.
It doesn’t relate with white people, specifically white people, not being allowed to feel bad for balding because it makes them look old.
Ah well it looked like you were arguing against the elevated importance of hair salons and barbershops for people of african descent.
I am not sure how you concluded anyone is arguing the last point, I missed that.
Cool. Have fun with your intentional ignorance. Your whiteness will undoubtedly shield you from any contradictory evidence if you don’t actively fight against it. Cheers, mate!
Are you being racist against me?
I think you are both assuming my race as white and them being pejorative against white people.
That last message was not cool.
Brother. Comrade. Friend. I assumed you’re white because you think that racism is a thing in the past. That it’s an icky, immoral thing for history textbooks and not something that anyone deals with today. I assume you’re white because you defend white people in a scenario where they’re privileged and that privilege shields them from the reality that others face. I assume you’re white because when I give an example of what this experience is like for a non-white community member, you immediately center whiteness in your rebuke. You assume that speaking of the white experience as what it is is somehow racism.
Whiteness isn’t some failing of race, it’s a systemic knowledge gap where white people assume themselves the default race and they think they can easily project their experiences onto other communities. They don’t know the struggles of other communities because they aren’t forced to confront how racism impacts their experience. White privilege isn’t something that gives them a leg up, it just means they don’t have to grapple with racism in their day-to-day lives.
I do not think racism is a think of the past. I do not believe I’ve ever said that. I don’t even identify as white. My DNA has more in common with North Africa than with the Anglo-Saxon groups that created the concept of “being white”, so you should check your prejudices.
Racism is really prevalent today against PoC. I’ve anyone understood anything else from my messages I apologise for not delivering my wording right.
That being said. “White” people is privileged in many areas. Going bald and suffering from balding is not one of them. And invalidating that feeling, saying that a white person going bald should not complain or suffer about it JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE. Rubs me the wrong way. Millions of white people suffer a lot because they are going bald, trying to invalidate that feeling just because they are white is just wrong.
It’s incredibly funny you say I believe “white is the default race” when you directly attacked white people, and your only defence for that offence was that was hair saloons are important for black people. Completely ignoring the thousands of different ethnicities that are neither black neither white. What about a balding Asian? can they complain if they go bald? A balding latin american? Which degree of anglo-saxon DNA has a person have to have in their blood to be able to complain about going bald?
The root of this is that a person say that “white people cannot complain about going bald because they are white” and has yet not retracted that incredibly racist statement.
You don’t know what’s going on in the life of that balding white person, and you CANNOT DEDUCE IT FROM THEIR RACE. You don’t know if they are for instance a trans woman and suffering an incredible gender disforia because the balding. You don’t know what importance have their hair in their lives. And trying to invalidate those feelings based only on their skin color is a bad thing to do.
Sorry, can’t let this go. This is the whitest fucking shit I’ve ever heard. Bro, non-white people don’t fucking choose how to identify. They are identified and have to deal with how they’re identified. The fact that you think you can choose to not identify with whiteness screams of the fact that you’re absolutely steeped in it.
My direct quote, it’s interesting that that doesn’t say what you said it does. I’m not saying this isn’t a struggle for white people, silly. I’m saying that they have less to grapple with losing. Even if they have the same level of connection to community through their hair, losing that won’t other them from an intrinsic part of their identity. That is a lesser loss, which was my point and the reason why I emphasized that.
I’m not ignoring shit, dude. You asked what being white had to do with it, I gave a counter-example of someone who isn’t white losing something deeper than a white person could face in the same situation. I don’t need to explain that hair is a big part of many identities to demonstrate my point or cover every possible group that it could possibly apply to, just that it isn’t the same for white people.